AUTHOR: blackmer
TITLE: Here's a first entry
STATUS: Publish
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DATE: 04/19/2005 10:26:20 AM
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OK here's the class blog, and the idea is that you'll use it constructively with minimal coercion. We'll see...
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AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.163.120
URL: 
DATE: 04/19/2005 10:27:49 AM
So I'm posting a comment, just to show how easy it is to do it.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Harvey
EMAIL: markowitzh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.68.7
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 09:47:11 AM
Great work guys.  Only a few comments

Subsistence -- Justin and Haynes.  Your focus on food, water, and shelter is right on target as is your observation on the connection between subsistence and these basic needs. My only comment is this: is it necessarily the case that religious beliefs and practices are nothing but mechanisms to fulfill these needs?  Can some of them originate independent of concern for survival?  

Landscape -- Meredith and Anne.
You are asking the essential questions, both with reference to the pre and post contact situation of Indian peoples.  I think you will find lots of material to work from with the O'odham groups.

Health -- Stephanie and Emily
The disasterous repurcussions of post-contact history on O'odham health have been manifold.  However, you correctly identify Diabetes II as the major villian.  This should make an excellent study.  If things go as planned there should be some O'odham folks that can speak to this issue. 

Water -- Joe and Sara
An excellent statement of issues and a virtual outline for your paper and presentation.  I assume that you found today's readings on the Hohokam and their manipulation of available water (both for irrigation and akchin agriculture) very helpful to your project.

Again, great work all.

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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: HM
EMAIL: markowitzh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.68.7
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 09:38:08 AM
Hey folks,

This is luddite professor writing.  I posted a number of comments yesterday only to have Professor Blackmer tell me that they did not stick.  Sorry about that.  But this is way two of you "techies" are handling the electronic during the field trip.

HM
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AUTHOR: franzenj
TITLE: the essential questions of water
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DATE: 04/19/2005 01:45:54 PM
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As a neccesity to survival, water is an essential influence and building block in each culture. When a ceratin resource is not abundant, it acheives a higher level of improtance spiritually and funtionally in the realtive society. In North America, the manipulation of the water resources have evolved from archaic agriculture to the maintainance of large urban centers. The relationships to water have changed as it has become commodified and the once sacred water sources have become hollow landmarks in the migration of people thorughout the country. What forces motivated the changes in the use of water resources and how did they effect the societies and cultures that funtioned within these ecosystems? 
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AUTHOR: Stephanie
EMAIL: hannons@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.171.122
URL: 
DATE: 04/19/2005 07:02:47 PM
Great background info, and think you hit essential question on the head. I would like to know more about the change in "spiritual belief" if it can be called that, in terms of water becoming less as a revered being and more as a commodity if that can be of help.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Emily
EMAIL: lange@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.171.122
URL: 
DATE: 04/19/2005 07:05:20 PM
Great job. I would like to know about the difference of effects for contact and other factors like climate. I wonder if contact had a greater effect and was less able to be adapted to than changes in climate, etc.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 69.68.126.224
URL: 
DATE: 04/19/2005 10:21:03 PM
Nicely put, especially fingering abundance as the hinge in recognized value, and commodification as a significant change.  Identifying and tracing the FORCES that motivated the changes in use may be the easy part (often they're external market forces, sometimes coerced; sometimes it's exogenous climate change), but comprehending the psychic and/or spiritual consequences may be a much greater challenge.
I do need to hassle you over the typos (hell, I make 'em myself, but still...) The one that really matters is that 'effect' in the last question: it should be 'affect'!
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: anne
EMAIL: hungerfordm@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.162.134
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 12:56:09 PM
Yup, check with all of the above. I was also wondering what effect they had on climate, as opposed to the other way around. Or, that is, what effect has been worked on climate since contact. I know water/rainfall and weather patterns can actually be heavily influenced by our stupidity, and it would be interesting to see if that is also the case here since it would have far reaching effecs on water supply now and in the future for hte O'odham.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Meredith
EMAIL: doneganm@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.162.133
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 01:02:07 PM
After today's class, I was thinking about how cool and innovative the Hohokam's irrigation systems were. I wonder if there is  a way to incorporate this information into your research and see how it might apply to modern water usage issues. Does it seem harder, easier, the same?
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Haynes
EMAIL: kingjh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.48.2
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 08:57:18 AM
Great job on this question...I've found the info on irrigation canals extremely fascinating with our concentration on subsistence.  Water, as you state, is a neccesity.  We'll definitely have to collaborate.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: HM
EMAIL: markowitzh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.68.7
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 09:44:40 AM
Water -- Joe and Sara
An excellent statement of issues and a virtual outline for your paper and presentation. I assume that you found today's readings on the Hohokam and their manipulation of available water (both for irrigation and akchin agriculture) very helpful to your project.

Again, great work all.

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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Justin
EMAIL: baccaryj@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.63.138
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 09:44:54 AM
Well said everyone. The climate aspect and its relationship to water is interesting. I think a discussion on the commodification of water and its different users (ranchers, farmers, Phoenix, etc.) could be worked in somewhere. Haynes, I agree that some collaboration between our group and this group is in order. Let's GRD...
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AUTHOR: steph
EMAIL: hannons@wlu.edu
IP: 67.20.52.236
URL: 
DATE: 04/22/2005 02:56:10 PM
Hey, today we were talking and came up with the idea that there is a correlation between working and survival: the native americans we have been reading about thrive when they are productive, and then are destroyed when working stops. As far as the irrigation for the Hohokam and the Oodham people, it makes sense now that the Hohokam may have vanished because their main source of work, the water, started to vanish. With the O'odham, the Pima started to 'get' diabetes around the time when the wheat harvests were failing. As far as being a people that depend so much on the water, there may be a correlation between working, the water, and people's survival in terms of psycology. sorry so lenghty!
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AUTHOR: hannons
TITLE: Health: the essential questions
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DATE: 04/19/2005 06:57:41 PM
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How has the health of the O'Odham changed and what were the elements that caused those changes? While tracing the specific topic of Type II diabetes, we will investigate many different effects of European contact on the O'Odham people. 
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AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 69.68.126.224
URL: 
DATE: 04/19/2005 09:59:51 PM
I certainly agree that the question of how O'odham health has changed is at the core of your research problem/quest, but I'm still wondering what the essence of HEALTH is in the most general sense? How can we   measure or assess the HEALTH of an individual? a population? I'm not at all sure that I know the answers, though I'm  thinking that it involves levels of nutrition and longevity and absence of infection and other forms of dis-ease. But how do we establish what those SHOULD be? Those are some of the bits I'm wondering about.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: anne
EMAIL: hungerfordm@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.162.134
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 12:54:11 PM
There is a bit about Type II diabetes in "The Desert Smells Like Rain" and how it is directly correlated with diet; you might speak to Haynes and Beattis about some of their input. And aren't there specific surveys/census things taken that outline health/nutrition basis and so forth in communities? I feel like there must be a poll or survey out there regarding levels and health within the O'odham communities...
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AUTHOR: Meredith
EMAIL: doneganm@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.162.133
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 12:56:44 PM
I agree with Hugh that when researching the health topic broader issues of how exactly to define health should be considered. However, I think for the paper itself focusing on one specific disease (Type II diabetes) is a very effective approach for tracing the impact of European contact on the Tohono peoples.
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AUTHOR: Sara
EMAIL: duckworths@wlu.edu
IP: 24.51.107.48
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 08:54:17 PM
Type II diabetes is a great start to such a broad topic. In a lot of the precontact reading the authors write about the crops.  In some of the readings in folder 8 there are some lists of 'healthy' foods. What kind of medical dictionaries are you going to use to define Type II?  I'm interested to see what ya'll come up with!
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AUTHOR: Haynes
EMAIL: kingjh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.48.2
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 08:54:09 AM
Like Anne said, Beatus and I are looking at the diets, and would love to figure out how the diet affects the development of disease.  While European contact seems to be the blame for a lot of diseases, I think the diet is an important place to look.  Good luck!
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Justin
EMAIL: baccaryj@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.63.138
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 09:38:58 AM
I think the others have done a good job pointing out where this paper could go. Type II diabetes is a specific starting point, and branching out from there would probably be a good way to study this topic. Since no one else mentioned this, have either of you thought about looking at mental health in addition to the more common physical health? It might be more difficult to find information on, but this could be another potentially interesting aspect to research further.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: HM
EMAIL: markowitzh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.68.7
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 09:43:13 AM
Health -- Stephanie and Emily
The disasterous repurcussions of post-contact history on O'odham health have been manifold. However, you correctly identify Diabetes II as the major villian. This should make an excellent study. If things go as planned there should be some O'odham folks that can speak to this issue. 

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AUTHOR: jf
EMAIL: franzenj@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.170.122
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 02:39:27 PM
I think Type II diabetes is one of the largest problems faced by this community. The aspect that most interested me was the existence of the "thrifty gene," encompassing thaspects of the instinctual genetics coping with the new structures of society.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: lake powell
EMAIL: hey@hey.com
IP: 62.103.24.140
URL: http://www.secretcanyons.com/
DATE: 05/01/2005 03:42:16 AM
lake powell
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AUTHOR: hungerfordm
TITLE: Landscape and Sacred Sites
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DATE: 04/19/2005 09:30:43 PM
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What-as much as can be understood by us-was their relation to their landscape? How did their beliefs influence these interactions and come to be manifested in their sacred sites? What was changed by contact, both geographically and within their relationship to the landscape? What was disrupted or destroyed? In what ways do they work to maintain or rejuvenate old lifeways and traditions in the face of American government and influence? 
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AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 69.68.126.224
URL: 
DATE: 04/19/2005 10:07:17 PM
Yup, those are the O'odham-specific questions. But what IS it for a place or an object to be SACRED? Is it a matter of some sense of awe that people feel? Is it something that can't be 'measured' in a scientific/positivist sense, though it can be FELT by those who are somehow susceptible to the force? Do we have to BE O'odham (or whatever) to get it, and/or can we sense it by some sort of contact with or transmission from people who DO get it? Again, no answers, just things I wonder about myself.
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AUTHOR: Emily
EMAIL: lange@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.104.125
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 05:28:41 PM
It will be interesting to see how the O'Odham reconciled Europeon influnces, namely Christianity, on their ceremonies. From the course pack reading, it seems that they have embraced Catholicism and that certain Christian rites are very spiritually important. Do the O'Odham now regret the intrusion of Catholicism, or do they embrace it?
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AUTHOR: Stephanie
EMAIL: hannons@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.104.123
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 05:51:48 PM
One more question to find out is, did the O'Odham believe that they were victims of some force when contact occured? In other words, did they or do they believe today that European contact did destroy them: is it an act of a greater power, done for a reason, or is it something that occurred to change them for a different reason? How has current mentality motivated reconnection with sacred sites or how has it caused greater distance?
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AUTHOR: Sara
EMAIL: duckworths@wlu.edu
IP: 24.51.107.48
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 09:06:00 PM
That sounds like a great line up of questions.  I would be really interested in anything that stayed the same.  Were there any constants or was everything redone? Are you going to focus on several key ceremonies and then go from there?  Are you going to deal with the Spanish contact at all? I'm not even sure if they have anything to do with change in spirituality, but it seems like a plausible reason for change.   
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AUTHOR: Haynes
EMAIL: kingjh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.48.2
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 08:51:23 AM
Sounds like a great start to me.  I also agree with Emily to see about the Catholic influences.  That's a great place where the firsthand meeting the people will be so helpful.  I am interested to learn about the pre-contact rituals, and how they are related, in my case, to their subsistence.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Justin
EMAIL: baccaryj@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.63.138
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 09:32:54 AM
Great start. Like Haynes, I am interested to see where your topic and ours overlaps. I think the others were spot on when they commented on the importance of the changes that occured due to contact with Euroamericans. I especially liked your last sentence, and I think it would be interesting to look at recent attempts to bring back more traditional practices, if this is at all possible.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: HM
EMAIL: markowitzh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.68.7
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 09:41:34 AM
Landscape -- Meredith and Anne.
You are asking the essential questions, both with reference to the pre and post contact situation of Indian peoples. I think you will find lots of material to work from with the O'odham groups.

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AUTHOR: jf
EMAIL: franzenj@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.170.122
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 02:44:05 PM
I think in finding the current identity of the O'odham these questions need to be asked. The questions draw on almost all of the aspect of the culture and its changes through the past centuries. I think an interesting aspect to look at would be the types of traditions that have survived, whether complex or simple, and what they are related to in the community.
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AUTHOR: kingjh
TITLE: Subsistence
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DATE: 04/19/2005 11:37:16 PM
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The topic of subsistence boils down to the three basic needs of humans:  food, water, and shelter.  In our opinion, religion and culture develop around these three basic needs.  Our essential question is two-fold:  how does the tribe fulfill these needs and how does religion and culture spawn from them?
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AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.104.128
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 08:45:18 AM
One of the interesting angles that I see here is the question of the difference between 'subsistence' as something that individuals do (singly? as family units?), and something that a collectivity ("the tribe") does. In the modern off-Rez world, it's more and more an individual matter; our romantic view of pre-Contact peoples may emphasize/privilege organic unity and cooperation. So the empirical question may be: what's the reality of today's O'odham subsistence? 
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AUTHOR: anne
EMAIL: hungerfordm@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.162.134
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 12:50:55 PM
hey. Nicely put; I think maybe still a bit broad but looking at ours I think all will probably be so until more research is conducted. In response to Hugh's comment, I think the answer will cme out of looking at changes that have occurred as a result of contact. Movement from communal to individual I feel is inherent in the cultural influence from the Euro-American contact.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Meredith
EMAIL: doneganm@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.162.133
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 12:52:53 PM
I think another angle might be thinking of religion itself as the most basic need. Does religion spawn from ways of subsitence or do the Tohono's methods of subsistence spawn from religion?
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AUTHOR: Emily
EMAIL: lange@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.104.125
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 05:24:56 PM
To echo Anne, I think it will be interesting to investigate the effects of contact on subsistance. I know for our topic, changes in subsistance has a large influence on health.
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AUTHOR: Stephanie
EMAIL: hannons@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.104.123
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 05:40:43 PM
Also too, I am noticing how it is important to understand the precontact creed of the O'Odham. How did they keep their physical world in balance? What activities did they do to ensure lifeways? Was contact a sign that balance with subsistence was out of that equilibrium? Good thesis in general!
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Sara
EMAIL: duckworths@wlu.edu
IP: 24.51.107.48
URL: 
DATE: 04/20/2005 09:12:08 PM
Your 'core' idea seems very logical.  Do you think the O'Odham would agree with culture and religion falling secondary to food, water, and shelter?  Can one be switched for another in certain circumstances, like shelter be switched for culture? How have family structures been changed since contact, and thus where the person lives been changed?   
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: HM
EMAIL: markowitzh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.68.7
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 09:40:18 AM
Great work guys. Only a few comments

Subsistence -- Justin and Haynes. Your focus on food, water, and shelter is right on target as is your observation on the connection between subsistence and these basic needs. My only comment is this: is it necessarily the case that religious beliefs and practices are nothing but mechanisms to fulfill these needs? Can some of them originate independent of concern for survival? 

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AUTHOR: jf
EMAIL: franzenj@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.170.122
URL: 
DATE: 04/21/2005 02:49:40 PM
I think the questions cover the goals of the investigation well. One aspect of subsistance is that the native peoples survived in a desert. I think that is a massive feat in itself. I think acknowledging the key innovations and practices that allowed these communities in a "harsh" enviroment is important to understand this susistance system.
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AUTHOR: franzenj
TITLE: specific questions
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DATE: 04/24/2005 09:12:00 PM
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Water was and still is an essential resource for the O'odham people. In researching the role of water, the chain of events that led to the destruction of the ecosystem, the failure of the O'odham agriculture and in effect the disentigration of the community and culture of the people demopnstrated the importance of water in survival. Upriver settlement was the primary cause of the water problems which compounded as more non-indians moved into the area adn the water resources were mismanaged and redistributed. Many of my questions have been answered thorugh my reading but I think the disregard for the Native Americans of the area by the government as well as other settlers is an interesting area needing more time. I also want to observe what cultural aspects fell victim to the lack of water in relation to the surviving.
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AUTHOR: Sara
EMAIL: duckworths@wlu.edu
IP: 24.51.107.48
URL: 
DATE: 04/26/2005 02:44:46 PM
Joe, you have a great overview of what is going on with water (good luck with folder 9!).  How were you planning on observing the cultural aspects?  While we don't have to ask hard questions about alchohal or the like, I'm not sure what exactly we should ask about water.  There was a suggestion made that we look at the way people use the water in their day to day lives, so recording that should be a stepping point.  We should also record what is going on around the damns now and how wells are set up around the area.  Looks like we have our hands full.  
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AUTHOR: duckworths
TITLE: And Water Continues...
STATUS: Publish
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DATE: 04/24/2005 10:42:18 PM
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Joe points out an interesting part of our topic:  How does the culture of a place change when such a basic need is taken away?  The progression of contact (from the mountain men to Anglo settlers) has created simultaneous problems with how the O’odham survive and function.  Frustration arose from both the outside community and the insiders because of the growing perception that the O’odham were lazy, rather than lacking a vital resource to survive/ create a product.  The United States government continually underestimated the need for water and only recently (with the Salt River- Pima Maricopa Indian Community Water Rights Settlement Act of 1988) did they give the warranted amount and water rights over to them.  I would like to look further into how the O’odham have tried to reach government agencies for aid during the 40 year drought, as well as how they are represented currently.  My readings have spanned a good bit in to how water rights were fought over, but there still remains a problem over how these are viewed within a sacred context.  I also need to look more into how current residents feel about their land/ water and if they feel the government has treated them fairly.  Also if there are differences in everyday water usage in and outside of the reservation, as far as farming techniques and conservation. 
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AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.104.128
URL: 
DATE: 04/25/2005 04:18:45 PM
for Sara and Joe:
For me, the overarching question is how Desert People relate to everyday water use? Because it's a scarce resource and a (maybe even the main) limiting factor, we expect elaboration of behavior and attitudes, and clearly there's plenty of folklore that reflects past importance. But I'm curious about the empirical question of how water is accessed and managed for mundane everyday (1) personal/domestic and (2) agriculture/livestock use. What do people actually DO on a day-to-day basis? 

You're certainly right to be looking at the cultural consequences of diminished water supply, and the uses of government services and aid, and the whole higher-level political economy of water, but I'd urge you to keep your eyes open for what people actually DO in their daily lives. Easy enough to see what WE do (carry water, always think about being thirsty), but what about THEM? 
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: jf
EMAIL: franzenj@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.161.48
URL: 
DATE: 04/26/2005 12:01:48 PM
Between both Sara and I we are gradually discovering the dynamics of water within the O'odham world. In looking at their history, I think a focus on the use of water is the most important aspect before the mid-1800's but after this point the paramount concern was just getting the water and the acknowledgement of their water rights. As I read the articles I get a sense of a people fighting to preserve their way of traditional life. In trying to work within the new system they change themselves and are molded into the institutions and structures such as capitalism, corporations and more structured leadership that they are trying to compete with. 
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AUTHOR: lange
TITLE: Health Specifics
STATUS: Publish
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DATE: 04/24/2005 11:43:16 PM
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I've been reading a lot of background material on health and aftera partner conference, we've decided to look at both alcoholism and type II diabetes as our health issues. I, being the psychology major, am focusing on alcoholism. I am especially interested in the saguaro wine ceremony and how it relates to alcohol consumption. It seems that the O'Odham have always been in the practice of getting drunk, but traditionally, it was highly ritualized. I am wondering if some despiritualization went on post-contact that devalued alcohol. The wine ceremony is just one piece of the puzzle, though, and I hope to find out more about this health issue. 
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AUTHOR: hannons
TITLE: OOdham health
STATUS: Publish
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DATE: 04/25/2005 12:02:13 AM
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Health is a subject involving genetics, psycology, outer influences such as germs (wandering disease), prevention, curing, health care, and treatment. To the O'Odham, it involves layers of experience as well. In our project, I am going to focus on genetics, food, and nutrition specifically with Type II diabetes, because the interaction of these subjects provides an objective understanding of the disease and its prevalence among the Pima and Papago. One of the most interesting things that I found out is that there is a genetic basis for diabetes among Native Americans: insulin markers found on cells have proven that Native Americans have a higher suseptibility to the disease. This means that for years, the 'desert' diet of the OOdham conditioned their genetic make up to be different from ours. With this in mind, how on one hand can we force the Oodham to assimilate into Anglo culture while at the same time telling them that they are different genetically, and therefore must eat differently?

In Az, I would like to know more about how prevention of disease and treatment of disease works today: does a moral code or does Catholicism 'define' being a good relative? Also, do shamans or medicine men have any role in current institutional curing? Or, do hospitals have alternative and traditional medicine?
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AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.104.128
URL: 
DATE: 04/25/2005 04:08:52 PM
For both Steph and Emily: 

In respect of "forcing the O'odham to assimilate", I wonder to what degree they are willing participants, in choosing particular diets and behaviors? At some level, they must know that it's not "good for them" to eat popovers and drink Coke (and alcohol), but still they do it... 

You have the advantage (and the challenge) of plentiful scientific literatures for both diabetes and alcohol, so it's pretty easy to build up an outside health care provider's perspective. The consequences of both "modern" diseases are pretty much in the realm of Anglo medicine, right? Are there any indications of shaman/curer involvement with either? 

Outside of diabetes and alcohol, for what O'odham-specific maladies do people NOT seek "medical" help? I'd expect that many would have to do with psychic problems, not recognized by (or easily categorized in) Anglo medicine, though there may be some interesting crossovers. I have a psychiatrist friend who is currently handing out drugs on the Navajo Rez, dealing with Navajo problems as if they were Anglo ailments, so I assume that there are analogous things in O'odham land.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Emily
EMAIL: lange@wlu.edu
IP: 24.51.107.168
URL: 
DATE: 04/25/2005 04:31:43 PM
Type II diabetes and alcoholism are Anglo diseases. This is magnified by the fact that they did not become health problems among the O'Odham people until after white contact. In AZ, I would like to find out if there was even a name for alcoholism and diabetes before contact. If not, it seems that there would be not ritual cures for such ailments. In such a case, are these illnesses seen as more hopeless or have the O'Odham integrated them into their understanding of the cosmos?
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AUTHOR: hungerfordm
TITLE: Questions Again
STATUS: Publish
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DATE: 04/25/2005 08:46:42 AM
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Having done the reading, I would say the wuestions remain in many ways the same. However, now with more of an idea of what the focus is to be on the paper, some new ones can be added tot he mix. How do the sacred sites demonstrate the relationship to landscape? In what ways is the culture inherently  changed by disruption in the sites, and how is cultural change shown through changes in the sites? How much are the O'odham tied to their land? 
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Meredith
EMAIL: doneganm@wlu.edu
IP: 65.41.104.249
URL: 
DATE: 04/25/2005 07:07:41 PM
Well, Annie - you seem right on the money. As we have discussed, the sacred sites are of the utmost importance as a representation of the O'odham beliefs. The disruptions of these sites (like at Kitt's Peak) demonstrates some of the most significant post-contact changes in the O'odham himdag.
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AUTHOR: doneganm
TITLE: Sacred Sites cont.
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DATE: 04/25/2005 08:50:32 AM
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The Tohono Oodham people, like all Native Americans, are closely connected to the land. They are called the "Desert People." They embrace the harsh landscape because they recognize it as their place. This fundamental connection serves as the basis for our continued research regarding spiritual and cultural beliefs arising from their unique landscape. We want to see how the desert itself informs their religion. We are specifically interested in visiting many of the sacred sites (such as the Shrine of the Living Children) that serve as physical representations of these beliefs. We hope to visit and observe first-hand how the modern Tohono Oodham people use and preserve these sites in order to understand how spirituality might have been changed in the post-contact era.
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AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.104.128
URL: 
DATE: 04/25/2005 03:56:31 PM
This to both Ann and Meredith:

It may be totally obvious to you (having done the reading and so on... which I haven't), but I'm curious about what people actually DO at the shrines (e.g., at many Catholic [and other...] shrines, visitors leave something behind, or take something away as a reminder)?

And should we be distinguishing specific places from the general notion of sacredness of landscape? Thus, Kitt Peak seems like it's 'sacred' in a diffuse way, rather than being the  focus of specific ritual behavior/activity. "How the desert itself informs their religion" is diffuse in this sense --not to say it's less interesting, but it's surely harder to pin down than, say, the specific activities of pilgrims to a site.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: anne
EMAIL: hungerfordm@wlu.edu
IP: 65.41.104.249
URL: 
DATE: 04/26/2005 01:00:12 PM
Yeah Meredith, definitely want to see how the landscape informs their religion, but also in doing so its effect on their culture. The inherent inseperable aspects of those two elements, religion and culture, for the Tohono O'odham would, I think, make it so the two would both be formed by the landscape through each other and directly through their relation to the landscape. Dude, our dyad rocks.
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AUTHOR: baccaryj
TITLE: More on Subsistence
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DATE: 04/25/2005 09:01:47 AM
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After reading the responses to our original posting, I have become interested in the idea that religion could be the mechanism that the O'odham people use to fulfill their basic needs (food, water, and shelter). I think our trip to Arizona is the perfect opportunity to answer this question. The pre-contact subsistence lifestyle was very community-centric, while the post-contact lifestyle has become more individualistic--it would be interesting to inquire more about this in AZ. I am also wondering how to best integrate the other topics of water and health (the food aspect of this topic) into our broader "subsistence" topic. For example, the water rights that Joe and Sara discussed had a huge impact on life on the rez. How have the O'odham adapted farming/livestock techniques in response to repeated abuse by the government? Does this abuse have any long-term repercussions? I read about livestock reduction techniques in one of the articles and it mentioned that people are still really angry about this and have developed something like a post traumatic stress disorder...Anyway, I am learning more about our topic every day and I hope to have an extensive list of questions to answer on our trip next week.
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AUTHOR: Haynes
EMAIL: kingjh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.48.2
URL: 
DATE: 04/26/2005 08:54:18 AM
I think your post is an excellent one and points out some of the most important issues. While I think it will be difficult to prove by interviewing the Tohono O'odham people, I feel that the religion is based around the fulfillment of the needs.  For example, corn plays an important role in the ceremonies.  I think because of corn's importance, the ceremony was developed.  Not that the corn's importance developed because the ceremony already took place.  Excellent question about livestock/farming.  
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AUTHOR: kingjh
TITLE: subsistence
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DATE: 04/25/2005 09:52:34 AM
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While out initial question of subsitence was vast in its idea, the readings have given me a specific question to focus on.  We initially felt that subsistence can be boiled down to the ways in which the Tohono O'odham people gather food, secure water in an environment such as the desert, and build shelters to protect their environment.  Knowing what I have learned from the readings and the previous courses in Native American religions, I am interested in the religious aspect of all three of these things.  While we consider these mundane necessities, I am interested in focusing on the belief systems around them.  In addition, the topic of post-contact in relation to all three of these is important.  Where are younger generations deviating from these traditions and where are they keeping the same ones.  Our broad topic has great overlap with other topics which will make for interesting research and benefit the entire group.
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AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.104.128
URL: 
DATE: 04/25/2005 04:26:32 PM
for Haynes and Justin:
I really am curious about those cattle, and how livestock stuff figures into subsistence NOW, what part cattle play in the mix of strategy for individuals and for the O'odham generally. What can the census stuff tell us about ownership, management, etc.?

While I'm sure that there are religious dimensions to subsistence (and even surer that there used to be even more), what you can mostly observe is the mundane reality of the present --what people DO to feed themselves, how they extract a living from a particular array of resources, what choices they make among alternatives.
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COMMENT:
AUTHOR: Justin
EMAIL: baccaryj@wlu.edu
IP: 137.113.63.9
URL: 
DATE: 04/28/2005 02:05:06 PM
Haynes, I too plan to explore the belief systems around life's necessities, particularly food and water (shelter is slightly less important in my eyes). Your emphasis on post contact deviation is spot on, and it will compliment my focus on pre contact life in the desert. However, Hugh does make a great point that we will experience the mundane everyday life of the O'odham people first hand, and this should also play a role in our paper. Good work.
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AUTHOR: hannons
TITLE: 
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DATE: 04/25/2005 09:35:22 PM
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Emily, I really like how first, you are focusing on alcoholism as a specific topic: a lot of psycological, health, political, economic, and social connections will come from focusing on one thing. Also, I think that it is important to understand their mentality more, as you implied in your last question. From our readings, we are still unsure: the contact with the people there will help answer your questions. To add, maybe look at the mentality within different generations: do the children have the idea that they must take responsibility for alcoholism? Do the older people see alcoholism as a threat, or is alcoholism associated at all with the saguaro festival and vomiting ritual? Also, what were the change agents that made alcoholism so present in O'odham society? When did those changes start occurring and what was going on to make them occur? Great job Emily!
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AUTHOR: Hugh
EMAIL: blackmerh@wlu.edu
IP: 71.0.87.230
URL: 
DATE: 04/26/2005 06:44:57 AM
And I'm wondering about the politics/ethics/practicalities of asking about alcohol-related behavior and maladies. Not saying that you shouldn't, but suggesting that it's something we might want to talk over today as a group. It's just so DIFFERENT sitting in Lex and contemplating what THEY do, from actually formulating a question to ask of a person you're talking to. This is a constant problem for all fieldworkers, and requires every ounce of sensitivity to situation and circumstance that you can muster --often in a situation where you are basically an ignorant interloper, hoping to be treated gently... we'll talk further about this!
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